Ron Alexander LOSS! Grief - starting when very young - when as a child you are abused, and somehow you know that the wounding is not right, that you don't deseve it, and I think verbal and emotional abuse is just as bad maybe worse than physical! Terry Orr and Jax Byrne The loss of my dear Brother in an unjust war has produced immense anger in me, which I am still working on, and now being accepted i am using that energy for good - to help heal the wounds of war and to help stop them!
Ron Alexander Yes! Very good Terry Orr - I write about prioritorizing 'aversions" above ...for my own sanity as I can wallow in that anger too much especially aroung holidays like Memorial day!
Ron Alexander Oh by the way, I was with Katie when she first started the work, and I think she had quite a transformative experience, which led to her The Work of Byron Katie however I have disagreed with her on occasion. I think she has helped many people face reality - here and now. Not Reality that many teachers use which is in a different dimension.
Terry Orr Ron, I'm sure Katie is very inspirational at an emotional and intellectual level. However, the danger is that feel-good emotions, inspiration and intellectual philosophies are useless at giving people real help in their times of real need. This is when people can feel inferior and worthless because they are unable to measure-up to the rhetoric. The same thing goes for people like Eckhart Tolle who does little more than cash-in on high sounding words.
Jax Byrne I also think it's pertinent to note that many people like Byron Katie don't put themselves up on pedestals - it's other people who do that. I doubt she would regard herself as a guru. It can be helpful to listen or read about other people's experiences - like Katie - who have overcame adversity, while also remembering that they're not special, and that healing ultimately lies within oursel
Terry Orr The nature of feelings and thoughts is that they are ephemeral and constantly changing. When we try to capture and examine them, we stop the flow of healing and bury them in our subconscious where they hide like sleeping volcanoes waiting to erupt aat the next provocation.
The only way to truly resolve these mental impurities (like anger), is to learn how to observe the most subtle aspects of our being. Only then, are we able to pluck out the roots of misery within ourselves. Observation without evaluation is the key. It takes constant practice and ideally we would operate in that state 24 hours a day. This is an almost impossible task and it takes a lifetime of effort and discipline. It goes without saying that I am not "there" yet
The only way to truly resolve these mental impurities (like anger), is to learn how to observe the most subtle aspects of our being. Only then, are we able to pluck out the roots of misery within ourselves. Observation without evaluation is the key. It takes constant practice and ideally we would operate in that state 24 hours a day. This is an almost impossible task and it takes a lifetime of effort and discipline. It goes without saying that I am not "there" yet
Terry Orr Jax, Many years ago, I wrote an essay on the subject of addiction and applicability of the 12-Step program in a blog.
http://quietmindrecovery.org/mindfulness
http://quietmindrecovery.org/mindfulness
Ron Alexander Yes, Terry, I have been really serious meditating - 23 days in Silence, and have had the hardest time being non-judgemental of my own feelings of anger of all the above and more. I beat mysefl up for having these toxic feelings of resentment. I am just beginning to realize that meditation is for befriending myself - to accept and even embrace those feeling knowing that "this too shall pass". And I am learning through Pema Chodron to lighten up!
Terry Orr Ron. Overcoming our deep-seated miseries is a very long path. Don't knock yourself too hard. Patience and persistence is the key to success. You know how it is with Anapana meditation and how hard it is to keep the mind focused even for more than a few seconds. Instead of saying "oh, look at my wandering mind, how absolutely pathetic I am", we learn how to firmly, patiently, and without judgement to start again. Eventually, we are bound to succeed. smile emoticon
Terry Orr It's important to realize that it is a process. Seldom do we magically instantly become "cured". However, if we look at things in perspective, we begin to see improvement. As they say in A.A: "We shall look for progress, not for perfection."
Jax Byrne Very much enjoyed reading your link Terry. As mentioned before, I agree with so much of what you say. With regard to your references about 'self knowledge' and the adage: 'to thine own self be true' in the context of alcoholism, I'm a little unsure of what you mean. Why do you see the former as contradicting the latter? For example, as a suffering alcoholic, in the grip of addiction, I could be honest with mys elf that I am using alcohol to escape the hateful self, I perceive myself to be, but this 'self knowledge' may not be enough to cure me. I relate to the 'pink cloud' , feel good rhetoric that many recovering addicts use - yet another form of escapism. However, I hardly think people like Byron Katie or Eckhart Tolle can be held as culpable if people use their teaching as a quick fix therapy. I also question whether tools such as meditation or mindfulness, on their own, could cure a chronic addiction such as alcoholism. When we use externals to modify our behaviour or thinking - such as NLP - they can become superficial palliatives that prevent us from looking deep within ourselves. And it's only there that the malady and the cure can be found.
Terry Orr Jax: It is very common in addiction circles to disregard the value of self knowledge: "the actual or potential alcoholic, with hardly an exception, will be absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge" - Alcoholics Anonymous page 39. We also frequently hear (and see written on our chips) "to thine own self be true". In my article, I was merely pointing out, that in order to be true to ourselves, we must first know ourselves (self-knowledge).
Real self-knowledge at the deepest level, will inevitably reveal the roots of addiction within us. This was the great gift that Buddha gave the world. It has nothing to do with religion or belief in God. One of the primary contributions of A.A. is that it teaches people the value of living a moral life with honesty toward ourselves and others. For many, this is enough to overcome the self-hatred and blame of situations and circumstances and has set many an addict on the path to recovery. However, for some of us (around 80% even by A.A. calculations), this is not enough by itself.
I highly recommend taking a 10-day Vipassana meditation course. It is not easy by any means (as I'm sure Ron will attest), but the earnest person will be willing to do whatever it takes to break the viscous cycle. There is absolutely no way I or anyone else can convey the value of stilling the mind and listening to what our bodies are screaming for us to acknowledge.
Most people have no idea what is going on in their own bodies every single moment. It is only by learning to "listen" that we come to realize at the experiential level the constant, subtle vibrations occurring in us every moment. These vibrations are the result of mind flowing into matter and they are responsible for our misery and our happiness.
Real self-knowledge at the deepest level, will inevitably reveal the roots of addiction within us. This was the great gift that Buddha gave the world. It has nothing to do with religion or belief in God. One of the primary contributions of A.A. is that it teaches people the value of living a moral life with honesty toward ourselves and others. For many, this is enough to overcome the self-hatred and blame of situations and circumstances and has set many an addict on the path to recovery. However, for some of us (around 80% even by A.A. calculations), this is not enough by itself.
I highly recommend taking a 10-day Vipassana meditation course. It is not easy by any means (as I'm sure Ron will attest), but the earnest person will be willing to do whatever it takes to break the viscous cycle. There is absolutely no way I or anyone else can convey the value of stilling the mind and listening to what our bodies are screaming for us to acknowledge.
Most people have no idea what is going on in their own bodies every single moment. It is only by learning to "listen" that we come to realize at the experiential level the constant, subtle vibrations occurring in us every moment. These vibrations are the result of mind flowing into matter and they are responsible for our misery and our happiness.
Jax Byrne thank you for the clarification Terry. In my case, practicing morality (I was brought up as Catholic), addressing defects of character, forays into positive thinking and esoteric teachings like Krishnamurti were always temporary fixes. I discovered that the problem was, and never had been, me as such, but rather my perception of myself and what I believed I'd made of myself.. And, at the risk of generalizing the dilemma of the human condition, I see much pain and suffering caused because people simply don't know who they are.
Terry Orr Jax: Discovering the nature of mind, has nothing to do with questioning anything. It has to do with applying the microscope of awareness to observation of what is really happening as we re-create ourselves from moment to moment. The untrained mind, is like a blunt instrument attempting to make a delicate surgical operation. All we do with that blunt instrument is destroy ourselves in the attempt.
Jax Byrne so are you saying that the application of awareness teaches us the true nature of our mind?
Jax Byrne could this same principles be applied to those suffering from acute mental illnesses, such as, say, schizophrenia?
Terry Orr Jax: Ultimately, yes. However, we must be careful in such cases. If someone is suffering from acute mental illness, it is best that they don't just immediately throw away their medications. Better for them to be patient while they continue making progress. If the journey toward discovery of truth is anything, it must always be practical.
Jax Byrne and would the same principles hold true with chronic additions such as alcoholism?
Terry Orr Jax. It's a bit different. In the case of alcohol, there is a 3-5 day detox period - after which the person is generally not going to become "unhinged" if they don't imbibe. In the case of a person being prescribed powerful psychotropic drugs for something like schizophrenia or bi-polar disorders for example, there is much greater danger associated when quitting cold-turkey.
Ultimately, mental disorders of all kinds, originate in the mind. Some will disagree and say that these conditions have a physical, organic, biochemical origin, but those same people have zero understanding of how the physical body, brain, etc., manifests into being from moment to moment. Physicists are still largely "in the dark" as to what happens to the atom when it "disappears" from existence trillions of times every second as it dances from the finite to the infinite and back again in space and time.
Ultimately, mental disorders of all kinds, originate in the mind. Some will disagree and say that these conditions have a physical, organic, biochemical origin, but those same people have zero understanding of how the physical body, brain, etc., manifests into being from moment to moment. Physicists are still largely "in the dark" as to what happens to the atom when it "disappears" from existence trillions of times every second as it dances from the finite to the infinite and back again in space and time.
Terry Orr Here we enter such fields as Quantum Physics; in which theories abound and often contradict each other. My advice to any scientist studying these subjects, is to put away their books, sit down, close their eyes, quiet their active minds, and listen to the 'voice of silence" within. If they do this on a regular and sustained basis, they will have a better chance of discovering the insights that they seek.
Jax Byrne After this Vipassana meditation, Terry, what happens to the ego?
Jax Byrne interesting
Jax Byrne ego as false thought system
 |
| |||
| In anticipating one of your next questions now that we've dealt with the ego, you may wonder "what is the mind"? In very simplistic terms, The mind is a phenomena of nature having the characteristic of consciousness involving sense perceptions. These perceptions enable the mind to observe and experience other phenomena. There are aspects of the mind called "mental factors" which have the ability to "color" the mind by interpretation of perception. The results of this "coloring" are conditions such as greed, conceit, envy, regret, doubt, decision, faith, joy, compassion, etc. The mind comes into being from moment to moment with one or other of these mental factors as the result of karma - or cause and effect. When and as we react to these mental factors, we build probabilities for the next moment that will arise after the present one passes away. All this is very intellectual, and pondering these matters is not the best way to understand them. My descriptions are only words and they have no real meaning until you know within your own being the truths that you directly experience for yourself. :) | ||||
Jax Byrne appreciate your generosity and patience in sharing this with me Terry and providing clarity. heart emoticon
Terry Orr Thank your Jax Byrne for your honest questions and insightful conversation and thank you Ron Alexander for "hosting" the ramblings of this old man! it has been my pleasure smile emoticon
No comments:
Post a Comment