What Both Men and Women Can Agree On

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What both men and women can agree on: a flowering of consciousness
Posted by Ron Alexander on September 17, 2009 at 7:34pm in The small divide
.Eckhart's New Earth:

"When the ego is no longer identified with
the return movement in a person's life, old age or
approaching death becomes what it is meant to be:
an opening into the realm of spirit. I have met old
people who were living embodiments of this process.
They had become radiant. Their weakening forms had
become transparent to the light of consciousness.

On the new earth, old age will be universally
recognized and highly valued as a time for the
flowering of consciousness. For those who are
still lost in the outer circumstances of their
lives, it will be a time of a latehomecoming,
when they awaken to their inner purpose. For
many others, it will represent an intensification
and a culmination of the awakening process."

p. 287-8 A New Earthp. 287-8 A New Earth

..Replies:
Reply by Christa Lore Urban on September 17, 2009 at 7:38pm
Absolutely my work in elder care has shown this many times over
Love and Light
Christa
Permalink Reply by Ron Tocknell
Absolutely! I couldn't agree more. The role of the Elder became a little lost in Western society. This is something we need to restore.

I love the title! After 30 years of painstaking research, you finally found it! I knew there had to be something.


Permalink Reply by Joan Gregori
Ron, good post! Hi, everybody. :)

I believe the reason our egos evaporate, as we age, is that we don't really need them anymore. The self-consciousness most of us-- or all of us--felt in adolescence and young adulthood was a part of this ego...as we get older, and I'm glad about this, we no longer allow it to control us. We know what it is, now. We want to help other people, at least by bringing more awareness into the world. Yes, I can see the radiance in MOST older people.

Am I making any sense? :)

Permalink Reply by Ron Alexander
Yes! Joan you are making great sense, and I am seeing more radiance in more elders all the time now! thanks, ron

Permalink Reply by Claudia
that sounds all nice and well, but i don't think the term "elder" has anything to do at all with the physical age - for me, an elder is someone, no matter how old or how young, who has "earned" their wisdom over many lifetimes and is able to bring it into daily life. to universally recognize and highly value "old age" is utopia for me, there are many "old fools" around who are in fact very young souls. Personally, I've heard more wisdom from the mouth of my 9 year old since she was able to talk, than I have from anyone else. Now THAT should be revered and valued if anything. True, life experience in "this" life is priceless and yes, the ego does tend to be happy with a less prominent place. However, isn't it possible to strive to expand consciousness beyond this one life cycle and open up the myriad of experiences we have already assimilated? I think that's what these wise "old" kids do naturally and I can only say- finally the veil isn't as dense anymore !

Permalink Reply by Ron Alexander
I agree, Claudia. Thank you! Some of us are blessed enough to be born angels on earth, not me, but I have been very fortunate to work with some. They were life-threatened young adults at Jerry Jampolsky's Center for Attitudinal Healing. Most of them knew that they did not have much time on earth, and they enjoyed what they had moment to moment. Another way to describe these precious beings were that they were "old souls!" I think that is what you mean. Most of us have to learn, maybe for a lifetime, to let go of our egos and really be present in the Oneness of Love! It is a process for me and those of us who have to learn by experience. I am just glad to be here and continue growing to awareness! One Love, ron

Permalink Reply by Jeanne

I don't think disease, suffering or dying young distinguishes one as an 'old soul' anymore than you being there with them, assisting their process and learning from and through them distinguishes you as such.

Karmically... we've lived thousands of lives... perhaps millions... which means we've tried on many roles, many personalities, many challenges.

Youth is closer to the void from which they came from before they were born and haven't forgotten, haven't become mired in the traps that conflict the consciousness.

Going through the fire of adulthood and coming out at the end of a long life intact, loving, and wise is an honorable accomplishment. Looking toward the void at the end of life is still the same void from which we entered... but with a different perspective - a perspective polished by years of perseverance.


Permalink Reply by Ron Alexander Jeanne, I agree with all of the above except for your stance in the first paragraph. I worked in the medical field for 12 years before I created the Young Adult Group for Jerry Jampolsky. Plus my younger brother who died in Viet Nam (flying medivac helicopters - he refused to pilot gunships) was the most enlightend of me and my other 3 brothers. And a girl friend who died young from breast cancer was the most spiritually advanced of all my other girl friends.

I have found that ones who die young are generally more ready for it, than the general population. Now it is probably because " Youth is closer to the void from which they came from before they were born and haven't forgotten, haven't become mired in the traps that conflict the consciousness." And thank you for that observation. metta, ron


Permalink Reply by Jeanne
I can appreciate the "good die young" concept... but think that we, when looking through the lens of this single lifetime, are limited.
Whereas when considering thousands or millions of lifetimes, surely we've died at every stage of life multiple times. So I question whether or not dying young is indicative of anything regarding the evolution of the soul.

In situations where suffering and caretaking is evident, both sides are exhibiting qualities of goodness... its said even the "bad guys" have chosen to sacrifice a lifetime to allow others to learn from their dilemmas.
For example... Judas. It was prophecied that one of Jesus own disciples would betray him... someone had to be Judas. He fulfilled a role. Without his willingness to play that role in that lifetime... the prophecies and the story of Jesus would have played out very differently.

The first time I read "The Autobiography of a Yogi," particularly the part where he describes the wandering sadhu being leapt upon by police... during their capture of this gentle man, they cut off his arm, only to realize it was a case of mistaken identity... and he thanked them for the opportunity they had karmically presented him.
I knew then I was light years from enlightenment. ...and I had much to learn about the value of suffering. Mind you, Ron... this was decades before vipassana and understanding the first noble truth.

And in a lesser perspective, a shorter span of time, we have a tendency to think and speak well of the dead... to remember the pleasantries. The dying do take on a different attitude... but unless they go into a state of samadhi and consciously leave their body... they apparently have much karmic work to do too.


Permalink Reply by Jeanne o

The innocent "wisdom" of children is wonderful to observe... but is not the same as the experienced wisdom of elders. Living a long life on planet earth is a challenge... one that children have not yet done... no matter how many previous lives they have or have not reincarnated into.

I have often thought the best year of my life was when I was 12. I hadn't yet run amuck into the feminine cycles... that changed everything in my consciousness. I went from being an active, proactive girl to being a reclusive teen.

Then I married and had children... that changed me even more.

Then my first son died in my arms the day after a DPT vaccine... more change.

Then later as a divorced single mother, I dealt with exploitative bosses, unfair landlords, and uncaring people in general...
I was no longer the "wise" 12yo full of bubbly bounce, ambition, ideas, ideals and white-bread conditioning...
I became insecure, cynical and grasping for wisdom.

In fact, anyone who has lived long enough, knows that the older they get, the more they realize how little they know. Children do not have that perspective.

When my son was three, the pastor of my grandmother's church said he had to remind himself he was talking to a small child... cuz my son was so profound with his words.
Now... at 36, there's not even a hint of that little "wise" guy. I miss that little guy... and the man who stands in his stead does not resemble him in any way thats obvious.

The wisdom of elders is a badge of courage... and of course theres old fools, because there's fear of the unknown, of growing up, of letting go and of seeing truth.

The virtue of innocence fades with adulthood and becomes the ignorance of adulthood if naively held onto.
Adulthood is a test of the soul... and perhaps one of the reasons that suicide is highest among teens.


Permalink Reply by Ron Alexander "Adulthood is a test of the soul... and perhaps one of the reasons that suicide is highest among teens."
Wow, I have never thought of that before - really makes sense! Now looking back, I will never forget that I promised myself as a teen not to be meanly sarcastic like dad or not to be a martyr like Mom. And most of all, not to have a relationship like them and most other couples I knew. I was horrified to find myself with the same faults.

Jeanne, I have to confess, as much as I enjoyed working with life-threatened young adults, their Mothers, of course were extremely difficult. I know that anger goes on with the grief, but with my own Mother issues, I did not like working with them. And was the main reason I left after a couple of years. I understand that alot more now, but hated their justified rage projected toward me. moremetta, ron




Permalink Reply by Jeanne

"I was horrified to find myself with the same faults."
A recognition you could reach only with the years... not a perspective a child can achieve.

Like it or not, what we are exposed to gets inside us... especially early life influences. ...but later too... even when we think we're being conscious and aware.
For example... when I joined the Army, I promised myself I would be questioning the hows and whys of every detail. I knew that military science was an old and well-informed methodology... but I did not know it was irresistable... that it gets into your bones, your nerves and even your heart. I watched it slowly seep into me and into the other women I went through training with. I consciously observed hundreds of women change the way they talk, walk and think... As our monthly feminine cycles entrained, so did the rest of our system.

Unfortunately, our society doesn't take good care of the caretakers. It hardly seems fair that those who are ministering to the needs of dying children should also bear the brunt of their grieving parents.

"I understand that alot more now..."
...and again, the benefits of age and experience.
My ability to counsel, console and assist the suffering of others has changed with age. My capacity for compassion is relatively unchanged, but my personal emotions are different. No longer slave to naive idealism, biological cycles, hormones and primal urges... my compassion is dispassionate, detached and in tune with a different flow.

I learn so much dialoguing with you, Jeanne! Thank you for not "diss - cussing"! You are such a blessing to me, and many others! metta, ron
Oh, I have a question for you. When Barry, my nephew and "near son" was very young, he did not know a stranger - he loved everybody and was a joy to be around. As he grew up with an alcoholic father (my brother) and addicted mother (both died when he was young), he appeared to lose that light as he 'inherited" both of his parent's 'diseases. However, I still see that "little boy" in him despite his betraying me many times (reacting to my "tough love"), and self-destructing recently to being in prison for "up to 30 years". He is a big reason, I feel my new "outer" purpose in life is to help facilitate getting Vipassana into S. C. prisons. He is very bright, and I think could be a good Vipassana candidate.
So now to my question, although Barry is 27 compared to your son's 36(?), I am wondering why you don't see that "little boy" in him anymore? thanks, ron


(click on to enlarge photo collage)

Permalink Reply by Jeanne

Thank-you Ron for your kind words... please know that I also learn much from you ...and find your vast life experience anecdotes fascinating.

I am inspired by your continuing love and concern for your nephew. Too often I see folks throwing in the towel on addicts and alcoholics... they've been hurt or disappointed too many times and recoil in self-survival mode.
It is hard to understand and tolerate the actions and behavior of addicts... but as I've told families of addicts I've known... "as long as theres life, theres hope." ...never give up on anyone.

Your familiarity with him as a joyful child... to now as a man in a horrific place is tragic... for you and him. And I fully agree with your notion of bringing vipassana into the prison he's in... I know of no other technique or methodology that can eradicate the deep-seated roots of misery buried in his subconscious. ...but he also has to want it.

I would venture to guess that you witnessed him saying remarkably profound things as a child... that no longer seem to be part of his consciousness.
Similarly, my son's adult choices have overridden that little "wise" guy who once charmed even a man of the cloth with his inherent, innocent wisdom.

As a writer, I avoid personalism... except about myself. I believe a writer has to have permission to expose others in print... so when I speak of my son, please understand, it is generalized and not too deep. Suffice it to say, my son's disconnections are more a result of his choices of a mate and mother to his children... the kind of choices that will be with him for life and with his bloodline for generations to come.

You see... just those few words already make me sound like the typical disapproving mother-in-law. Perhaps better described by my husbands observations when he said, "you know its your fault that he chose ___. She's everything you're not and vice versa. You're everything I admire in a woman and she is eveything I find despicable in a woman."
And why my son would choose someone so unlike him too, is beyond logical understanding.
Yet... I do understand. I understand that he would have liked it better if I was more mainstream - less controversial, if I wasn't mixed race, if I wasn't alternative and if I was more materialistic. A friend once described me as a very ambitious person with no ambition. I'm driven, but not materialistic. I'm high energy, but not Type A. I'm ambitious, but not for appearances sake or money.

Fortunately I met a man much like myself... driven to know and understand, to create and discover... but uninterested in the market and economics, other than its sociocultural influence. He willingly works 16 hour days when obsessed with his current favorite sci-fi writing or software development project... but procrastinates about taking out the garbage. ...go figure!

I didn't actually say I "don't see that "little boy" in him anymore." ...but will say that I 'see' the same spirit, soul or essence of life.

I worried about him even as a toddler, who when confronted with another toddler knocking him down and taking his toy, would simply walk away and go get another toy. I told HubB the other day that I still see that same gentle spirit being knocked down and him remaining nonconfrontational. ...and I see how he is hurt.
I know that he is a child of god, the universe, the thing itself... and has his destiny to fulfill. He is a hard-working, devoted father, a talented musician and a friend to many... but he is not happy. And isn't that what every caring parent wants for their child?


Permalink Reply by Jeanne

me again... on the loss "that light".

Though I know its all a temporary phenomena in the grand scheme of things... it is the definition of tragic.
One of my worst nightmares that woke me in a cold sweat, was of me trying to hold onto a young person whose light was fading ...until I could no longer see him in the darkness. I know who that person is and I feel helpless to stop his descent.

Once again, Ron... only vipassana has helped me deal with accepting the suffering of others. It seems almost contrary to the beating of my heart... but I must believe that everything is exactly as it should be...
and who am I to think otherwise?
Permalink Reply by Erin Michell
thank you so much for this open minded discussion. this is what men and women want. i felt a little akward jumping in. i don't have children. but, i do feel the way Jeanne does about the wisdom of children. it's pure and beautiful. it's as if they are newborn to the world every day. the wisdom of being older is born of courage and experience. it is even more beautiful. experience is ALL to our growing souls.

to see two souls grow in love, through so much experience, is truly a blessing and an inspiration.

love, erin


Permalink Reply by Jeanne

Thank-you Erin, for your courage to participate in spite on feeling awkward. ...and for saying this is what men and women want. I have always gravitated toward the weighty subjects... but have also found myself being hushed by those uncomfortable by it.

The wisdom of children is without judgement... it is intuitive. ...something I've been pondering the past few days... following the drowning of my nephew. (not a child)
A week ago he announced he was joining the Army... and then he dies. I've wondered if in some weird way... the thoughts of joining the Army was a sort of an expression of a death wish.
They said he was trying to swim across a lake and went down in the middle... so many questions.

I've read that even in cases of accidents... people leave evidence of preparing for death... perhaps an intuitive preparation?

Perhaps we know more than we know we know.

Permalink Reply by Ron Alexander
I am brought to tears with the valuable deep soul dialogue here. This is such vital feedback to me and helps me to feel my worth as a male in this incarnation! Thanks to all who are participating in this conversation "what men and women want". I love you Crones so much! "a bubba aspiring to be a buddha to the bone", ron